From Prison to PhD: David Heiber’s Fight to Change Urban Schools and Inspire Hope

And when that works. It reminds the rest of us what’s possible today. I have one of those stories. David Heiber has lived through the kind of struggle most people don’t come back from, but he didn’t just come back. He built something great from prison to a doctorate, from being pushed out of school to helping over 70,000 students find their way back in.

This is a conversation about. Resilience purpose and the power of showing up how we all can find our way back and what needs to change in education, especially for students who’ve learned not to trust it. This is what I want to know.

David Heiber, welcome to what I wanna know. Uh, I’m glad to have you on the show

David Heiber: now. I’m, uh, good brother. You are a legend, a living legend in this space. Uh, you are a trailblazer. Um, have followed you, you’ve been supportive. My whole. Uh, endeavor as a educational, uh, as an educator and an entrepreneur. So thank you so much, man.

Like I, I remember our first meeting in your office in Washington, DC when, uh, Dr. Statham introduced us.

Kevin P.Chavous: Yeah. And, um, I’m very proud of you. Uh, in the intro I talked about your journey. You’ve talked about it a lot, but for a lot of people out there, uh, it is important to know what is possible when you have stumbles.

So I do wanna, what I wanna talk about the book, I wanna talk about concentric in your company, but the starting point has to be, uh, how you. You know, one faced these challenges that led to your incarceration and then the rebound, which is one heck of a rebound. Now, as I understand it, as I was doing research on you, I didn’t know you were a track star in high school.

David Heiber: Yeah, man. Um, so in, in, in Wilmington, Delaware, I was, I was Allstate. Um. My favorite sport was baseball, uh, but we were stacked. Um, a lot of people I was behind, um, got drafted, like the white manes, cliff, GRU ball, we were stacked. So one of my best friends at the time decided, um, you know, he wanted to go out for cross country.

So, you know, baseball was in the spring back then, and it wasn’t all year round. So my best friend, shout out a long time ago, at that time, Jeff McLaughlin said, I’m going to run cross country, and he’s the one that introduced me to baseball. Years ago when I was like eight or nine and I went out and I was one of the best in the state as a freshman.

And um, I really enjoyed Cross. Yeah, I really enjoyed cross country and I kind of, I kind of progressed from cross, uh, cross country and track.

Kevin P. Chavous: Wow. Well, what, what went wrong? What threw things off? Because you were a, a great high school athlete and then you faced challenges that really sort of sent you in a, in a, in a spiral you pulled out of it.

But it happens to so many young men.

David Heiber: Yeah. So, you know, a lot of times we think that the, it. These, um, uh, that were these anomalies. But no, we, many young men, uh, particularly African Americans, we have, we have challenges, right? And then we think that people are linear. We think that if you do A, you should get B, then you get C and then maybe D.

And life is not like that. life is so very complex. And so quite frankly what happened to me is, uh, I was raised by my white grandparents. Uh, I didn’t know my bi uh, my, my biological mom was an alcoholic. I didn’t know my biological father. So when I said my parents died, it was my grandparents, my white grandparents that passed away.

Um, and so this is my senior year in high school. Uh, I met lunch, one of the three lunches, uh, because I, I decided, because I was supposed to be that guy that I could go to all the lunches I wanted to. Um, that my grandfather, who was Christmas shopping, had a heart attack and he died, and he died at the gas station on the corner of my high school.

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If that sounds worth exploring, you can head to k12.com/podcast. Alright, back to the conversation.

David Heiber: And, uh, you know, the backstory behind all that is my father had given me a little a, a car and I used to leave. School. And, uh, if I didn’t go to three lunches, I would leave school to go get something to eat and I would, there’s, there’s only a couple ways to get to the different restaurants of Wendy’s, McDonald’s, whatever the case may be.

So my father, my grandfather died at 11:11 AM when he had a heart attack. That is when I would’ve been leaving school, driving past that gas station. And so I remember, uh, I had a 1983 Ford, uh uh. Escort. So now I’m really dating myself back in the eighties, little Ford Escort and, but I decided to stay in school, but he had a heart attack Christmas shopping, and my, my grandfather was a over the road truck driver, didn’t save a whole lot of money, and so me and my grandmother, we were left kind of destitute.

And kind of condensing the story about six weeks later, my grandmother was diagnosed with a brain tumor and lung cancer. And so I had these two traumatic, uh, instances, uh, within a short period of time and I, I didn’t have the support and this, and now this is me or older me looking back on that. I was supposed to be this track star and I don’t remember one social worker hell, one teacher, one administrator, talking to me about grief.

I just had, I went to school the next day after the heart attack. The only thing that saved me was, uh, Mr. Uh, Brad Lane, my gym teacher, my physical education teacher. He let me stay in the gym all day and play ping pong. That was the only adult and all those other, all those other administrators and what, who, whatever the case, may not one came to check on me.

And so I spiraled out of control. My, grandmother went through chemotherapy. Um, and I just, I start doing a lot of negative criminal behavior.

Kevin P. Chavous: One thing led to another and you ended up, you know, being incarcerated for a couple years and, um, and so you didn’t graduate and you ended up what, what turned it around? You end up getting your GED and, and, and got admitted to the prestigious Lincoln University, but what turned it around when you were incarcerated?

David Heiber: Well, I mean, this is gonna sound esoteric and stereotypical and whatever the case, it had little to do with me. Um, and you know, we joked at the beginning, before we came on that, you know, God takes care of babies, fools and nukes. Uh, and I wasn’t a nuop at the time, but it was God. It’s by the grace of God.

It it is by the grace of God. Uh, my, my grandmother died when, when I was in prison and I couldn’t go to her funeral ’cause uh, ’cause I was incarcerated obviously, and there was a lot of older brothers in prison. I was young, very young, um, 18, and they really supported me. I mean, I think there’s, I think it’s really binary in prison.

You either come out a better criminal. Or, or you do something with it. And through that, uh, experience every time I wanted to get into something, ’cause everything that you want to get into in the streets you can get to in prison, it’s just, it’s just different. And every time I wanted to get into something, a older brother would be there and be like, no, why don’t you come do this?

Why don’t you come do this? Um, and I think three, three salient things that really impacted me because I was around old heads and it’s really. And I look back, now I’m an O head, right? So, um, about to be 50. So I see it now is I always wanted to be around O heads. ’cause O heads there’s so much wisdom and experience and they’re, they’re just, they’ve seen so much.

And so they introduced me to Bible college, uh, which gave me some type of spiritual backing even though I was terrible when I came out of college. I mean, uh, I came outta prison and went to college, uh, Toastmasters, which is probably one of the most valuable skills I ever had. They had Toastmasters in prison.

And it just taught, uh, it taught me the basis to articulate my thoughts. Right. And then the third thing would be alternatives to violence. A VP. So a VP is a program about non-violence that started in the seventies with the Quakers. And the Quakers believe that there’s good in everything and God in everyone and everything.

But a VP introduced me to some outside community sponsors that wrote to the judge on my behalf to let me out of prison. And so, and this is how, this is how the, this is how the universe works. Um, you know, I was actually in church yesterday, uh, Kevin and the pastor said, does God have a history with you of, you know, of, of coming through and for me?

Yes. And so how can I ever doubt ’em? So as I’m going through this process, our frat brother, my line brother now, who I was two years older than would write to me. And he would said, you know, obviously I didn’t graduate. I had to get my GED in, in, uh, in prison. And he said, I’m going to Lincoln University. And I was like, wow.

Um, but Lincoln was D three. They were a national powerhouse in running, but I was recruited at D one and I remember I had just got my high school diploma. And so I applied to Lincoln from prison. I sent my application from prison and they accepted me while I was in prison. And, uh, you know, this is. When Lincoln was trying to get enrollment up, whatever the case may be, and I got my acceptance letter.

I sent my acceptance letter that I received in prison to my sentencing judge, and he, he amended, he, he amended my sentence and I remember I’m in the courtroom with him. Oh, the white man, judge Stormy Norman Baron. And he says to me, listen. I’m gonna change my, I’m gonna give you another chance. And he never did.

He never did 18 years on the Superior Court bench. He never changed someone’s sentence. And he said, I’m gonna give you a chance, but I’m not gonna give you too much time. I’m gonna let you out of prison. August 9th. And so, just on Saturday, I celebrated 29 years of walking out of prison. And I walked out of prison onto Lincoln’s campus for nine day.

I walked out on August 9th, went to Lincoln for freshman week, August 18th, with $50 in my pocket. And Lincoln changed my life. They, they, they converted an old mail room into my, uh, into a room. Um, and I mean, kind of the rest is history like Lincoln. Lincoln changed me.

Kevin P. Chavous: Let me ask you this because again, your journey is instructive for everyone to know.

Not necessarily just what’s possible, but the power of resilience. Uh, and at some point in time, I remember we met many years ago, you latched onto this. Idea of being an educational entrepreneur because you felt the system really wasn’t helping kids like you were. And you also saw that there was so much talent and potential in prison guys who fell off by the wayside because they didn’t get a chance.

So what, when you decided you wanted to pursue an educational career. How did you link education with the entrepreneur mission?

David Heiber: So, you know, it, it goes back again like, um, I think everything happens for the good of God. I, and you know, it, it’s not that I’m this zeal, uh, over zealous about being a, you know, I mean a Christian and religious.

But when you just start seeing the linkage of life. So, no, I wanted to be an attorney. That was my goal, to be an attorney. And I sat down with Dr. Waku, our department head at Lincoln. I was a triple major in history, black studies, uh, and education. And I said, I got accepted to Temple Law School and grad school.

And he said, well, Dave, you, you have a felony. Um, you might not be able to practice law. And so I said, okay, um, um, I’ll go to Temple for African American studies. So the reason I’m bringing this in is ’cause now we’re talking about, uh, Afro uh, Afrocentricity with male Asante. So if you take Afrocentricity in centricity or Afrocentric and concentric, now you start seeing.

The interconnectedness of it. So, um, I said, okay, I’ll, I’ll be a teacher. So I got, I, I did my student teaching was was student teacher of the year, um, and got hired in Hartford County, Maryland. If, uh, you know, for the viewers to give y’all some proximity. But I didn’t tell ’em, uh, about my crime. So they hired me ’cause they wanted more young black teachers, particularly males.

And I got the job and I, but I didn’t tell ’em about my, uh, my record. So I walked out and they were like, you better get your, uh, fingerprints. I said, damn, I, let me tell you. Let me come back and tell you something. So I went back and told ’em and they were like, don’t call us, we’ll call you. And I was like, well, what the hell am I supposed to do?

So during school, during college, I had been writing my, uh, my judge. And sending him my transcripts, but he never responded. So finally I graduated, I called Judge Barron’s, chambers, and Pam, his secretary, would answer. And I said, I just don’t know what to do. I can’t get a job. I have a degree.

I can’t get a job. And she said, okay, hold on. She comes back and says, judge Barron wants to see. So I drive to Delaware, I went to see Judge Barron, and it’s the first time I saw him since he sentenced me. And, and, and then since he let me out. And he said, I believe in you. We’ll get you a job. At the same time, Baltimore City Public Schools was hiring for a, um, for teachers.

The recruiter was our frat brother that I didn’t know. And he said, do you have a kid charge like a sexual charge? I said, no. Do you have a gun charge? No. Do you have a drug charge? No. You’re hired. Let’s go. So, so I got, I got the job teaching. I taught one year, became an administrator the very next year.

But the system is a system, Kev, the system systems are not failing. I was just on a show earlier today, right? And we know systems aren’t failing. Systems are getting the results that they’re designed to get, and it’s to keep a permanent underclass to keep subservient to the hierarchy. And so I was seeing that and then I was blessed to meet, um, through Dr.

Freeman Robowski, uh, amazing mentor man. Um, he pledged the wrong frat. Shout out to my alphas, but he pledged the wrong frat. But he introduced me to, uh, Kim Statham, and Kim was doing some innovative work with a new school venture fund and I had left the system and became director of student support services and student support services back then.

And, you know, this guy was everything touchy feeling that was not academic, but it was important. And she said, I love the idea that you have. Have you thought about going on your own? That’s when I took my background as an educator. And intuitively my background is an entrepreneur. So growing up, and I, I know you got me only by like one year, good brother, but I’m, I’m just, I know you are only 51, but when I was growing up, you had, you had to hustle.

So I had paper routes, I was cutting grass. My, the people who were on my paper route, I was cutting the grass and shoveling their snow. So I’ve always been an educator. I mean, I have always been an entrepreneur, so I just merged the two and said, how can I work with a system, but not for a system? ’cause the system will try to crush you.

Kevin P. Chavous: Well, let me ask you this because you’re right about that. Uh, real quick because I wanna talk about concentric and vision. Right now you’re in over 20 states. Uh, you’ve gotten funding from a new schools venture fund, over 70,000 students, and you do a lot of the things that combine. As you call the touchy feely with the academics, but, but talk about how concentric, and then we’re gonna get into your book, but talk about concentric sort of massages or pushes the system to be more responsive because as you have said, the system itself.

It is almost designed to punish those that are a little different. And, and how are you able to, through your work with school districts sort of flip the script on that

David Heiber: reality? So we’ve been unapologetically, um, whether students call it, keep it a 100 real, what we call it is being authentic and transparent.

We are very authentic and transparent here. Here’s the fact of the matter. People, companies are making millions, if not billions of black, brown, and poor white children. That’s the fact. Most of the people who talk about the work haven’t even done the damn work. For example, people are talking about crime absenteeism.

Now there’s organizations out there talking about systems and structures. They ain’t never walked in near neighborhood. That, uh, that most of, most of it that they’re talking about, they, they have, they haven’t done, they haven’t done that. Right. So what co, what concentric is, it’s a theory of change.

Concentric is the company name for my theory of change. My theory of change is ity. So I’m plugging the second book right now. The second book that we are gonna be called is called Eccentricity. The first book is an academic book, and the second book is more practical, uh, easier to digest. But centricity is really my version of Afrocentricity.

So when I went to Temple and I studied under Male Asante, male Asante created Afrocentricity. Afrocentricity Simply put, is putting Africans and Africans of the diaspora. At the center of social phenomena, how can we be subjects and not objects? So centricity is putting students at the center of schools.

Um, it would sound simple and it’s, it sounds common sense, but we don’t put students at the center of schools. What we do is we put adults in all this bureaucracy. So what we’ve done is said, okay, what is our approach? The approach is one door at a time. The reason it’s one door at a time is because every single human is individual.

What works for one doesn’t work for the works, works for somebody else. So our our, our approach is one door at a time. So what I did was. I took our Guidewire program. Okay. I took the, I took the QS program, I took the, uh, alphas program. I took the, I took the, uh, sigmas program. I’ll give a shout out to iOS, even though Yeah.

Right. You know what I mean? No shade, no shades to Myos. And then even the sororities, um, deltas with their Embody program in their gym, and it’s about how do, how do I hire a professional student advocate? They’re professional, meaning they have degrees, they’re about the students and they’re about advocacy.

And what they do is literally home visits, mentoring and tutoring. And that’s how we’ve knocked on 500,000 doors. In 16 years. I’ve knocked on concentric and my staff, we have knocked on 500. That’s a half a million doors across this country. Asking one simple question, how can we be supportive? That’s it.

Not agents. Not officers. That stuff don’t work. How can we be supportive? That’s, that’s what concentric does and been doing for six.

Kevin P. Chavous: And what are the, what are the services that you provide? Because, uh, as you know, and the only way you’ve been able to grow in the education world, and academics are huge on this, it’s all about data and results, though oftentimes the data that they trumpet don’t mirror the results that impact kids that in your.

In your world that you’re concerned about. So how are you able to maintain the purity of the vision and also speak the language, the data language in a way where academics say, oh yeah, this works.

David Heiber: Oh, yeah. No, no, great point. Because, uh, we had to, particularly a lot of community based organizations, quite frankly, African American organizations, you need your data, right.

And, uh, for the most part, uh, it’s, this is gonna be a blanket statement, but it, it just has been my experience. Europeans only look at data, uh, or your eccentric views only look at data in a, uh, quantitative way. And you know that data is qualitative and quantitative, right? So our approach is ethnographic study.

So how do you merge? The immersion of the qualitative, the narrative of the story with the quantitative outcomes that, that are needed, particularly for funding purposes or whatever the case may be. So what we, what we did, what we did was, is we knew that we had one primary service, uh, and we call it our one, which are home visits.

So I know Kevin, when you were growing up, hell, when I was growing. When, when teachers lived in the communities in which they taught, if the, if the student didn’t come to school, you, you knocked on, you just, you lived right next to the kid and you just knocked on the door. Um, post-integration that didn’t happen or post d seg that, you know, we moved out, whatever the case would be.

The home visit for us is breaking down barriers through authenticity and transparency to have a human connection, not to punish, but to understand. And so the home visit then was what are the barriers? What are the barriers that you’re experiencing? Why are you disengaged? Very few students that we have visited don’t come just for the sake of not coming.

There’s some barriers that have to be mitigated. So then what we were doing is we wanted to train people how to do home visits, um, but we could not get a critical mass in schools to do that on a consistent basis. I’m not talking about now, man, when it’s nice outside. I’m talking about when it, when you’re up north.

Or in Detroit and at zero degrees with six inches of snow, or it’s raining, or wherever the case may be, or you have competing priorities. We were collecting that data of the barriers and when we brought it back to the schools, they didn’t have the capacity to do much with it. So that’s when we took people that looked like you and me, who had the lived experience.

Um, and we hired from HBCUs and I took from fraternities and sororities, and I put people in schools that could have a relationship with students. So then we start doing mentoring, but mentoring wasn’t enough. Right. And advocacy. So then when we came out of the pandemic, our PSA start tutoring. So now people just wanna put, uh, like there’s going, there’s a, there’s a space for online presence.

’cause some people, like my daughter, my oldest, my oldest daughter, she responded to online tutoring and online instruction, but my son did not. Right. My middle aged son did not. There’s a, there, there’s a necessity for both approaches. And so our, our in-person connectivity with people who had shared experience and had the hard skillset is how we went from home visits and mentoring to tutoring.

And now, like you said, we’re in 20 states. And then that’s where we got the funding, the series A funding. And, you know, you know this much better than me. I didn’t know what the hell I was even talking about when, uh, venture, uh, VC funding came because black folks, black companies don’t get VC funded.

Kevin P. Chavous: No.

And it, it is pretty phenomenal. So, David, I have a couple more questions. It, it is, is, is it, it just is almost unheard of. But a couple more questions. Um, one relates to the actual book. You decided to put this out there. Talk about how school districts are responding to the book generally, especially those that you haven’t worked with, because what you lay out is the vision.

Associated with that sort of touchy feely aspect of understanding what is the challenge out there and then putting resources in place to address the challenge?

David Heiber: No, thank you so much. Um, so the book was a work project for 15 years, uh, between everything that we experienced, all these, this collective narrative and stories of what we experienced during home visits.

Uh, and then my cot, one of my co-authors, Michael Gary, he’s my, he, he’s my chief of staff, but he’s also my chapter brother, our frat brother. And he has done 200,000 home visits. Uh, I mean, he was doing, and so you have a theme, right? Like I, I put younger brothers on because younger brothers are committed to the work that they’re doing.

I mean, he was doing a home visit and he got shot at, right? I, I’m, I’m not sensationalizing, it’s what happened. He was doing a home visit and they were breeding pit bulls. I’ve done home visits. It was the largest crap game I’ve ever seen in DC in the Southeast before it was switched over, you start walking around, you see Whole Foods.

’cause DC that I saw isn’t what DC looks like now, but that’s a whole nother segment, man. Um, they’ve been to, to your point is, so it was like, how do we bring that stuff together? And then the missing piece was ivory. So I, Dr. Ivory Tolson is Professor Howard to me. He is our modern day divorce. He’s our modern day divorce.

And Ivory was able to take what we experienced and the stories that we’re able to collect and he, he, he married it with the, the academic lens. Um, and so now what we’re offering to, uh, to districts to your point is you take these touchy, uh, Philly services. Which we know are important, and we always did. We just put different names on it.

Like when we were coming up, not even when we were coming up. Um, it was re what, 15 years ago? Uh, Kevin, it was, uh, RTI, response to intervention, and then it became MTSS, whole child social, emotional. It’s all this, it just changes, right? People just create new stuff to make more money for us. We galvanize it under our theory of change, centricity.

And said, these are, these are tangible steps that you can do to integrate this into your academics and into your classroom. And districts have been responsive. They’ve been, they, they, it’s been a challenge for them because they have to see it differently. And academics has always outweighed the, the, the soft skills or the soft departments.

And this is having them rethink it. So, um. We’ve had now over, uh, in the past two weeks, a thousand sales. Um, and that doesn’t sound like much, but when you, when you start thinking about the volume that we’re pushing out on a daily basis, because it’s not just school districts, it’s the principals now of buying for their staff 30, 40, 50, uh, at a clip.

Kevin P.Chavous: Yeah, I mean, it’s powerful. So David, one last question. This is what I really want to know. As an educational entrepreneur, how do you see innovation going forward shaping the future of E of urban education?

David Heiber: So this is what, that’s a great question. This is a great question. Is. The more things change and innovate, it’s, I feel like, uh, many of the things have stayed the same and we are reverting back to it.

So if you remember a couple years ago, Kevin, we were trying to figure out how to integrate technology into the school. And I’m talking about particularly, uh, like cell phones. Now this year there’s been a mass movement to ban cell phones. Right. Like the, almost every district now is coming up with something, but just four years ago it was, how can we integrate it in?

Right. I think, I think historically education has been the most, has been the least innovative industry that I’ve seen. Right. But we have to redefine what innovation is. And marry it. I, I think, marry it with the, connect the connectedness that is absolutely necessary. So for example, ai, AI is not going anywhere.

And I’m on this cusp now, like I’m officially an old head, and in six months when I’ll be 50. I’ll be, I’ll get my o head card. It will say o head on it. Right? Um, it’ll, it’ll say, oh, head on, right? Like, I’ve even given up dyeing my hair. I’m just like, hell with it. It’s gonna turn gray again. Anyway, so, um, we’re, we’re gonna have to be careful, like how do we not lose the connectedness that is necessary for, for.

Watch students, but be very keen and aware of what type of innovation allows us, uh, to push, to push our young people forward. Innovation is going to be, and technology is going to be pivotal, but it’s how it’s going to, how it’s going to be used. And I think it’s gonna be an ongoing dialogue that we’re gonna have to, uh, to continue to have so that we can get, uh, so that we can get there.

Um, I’m speaking to my oldest daughter right now who is a sophomore at Prairie View. And so she came in the last three years with nothing but ai. And so when they’re writing, you know, seven to 10 page papers, like we have to come up with the whole infrastructure about what is, you know, how do you use AI and what’s acceptable.

And I think school districts are struggling with that right now.

Kevin P. Chavous: Yeah. Yeah, they are. And you know, David, what I would say, you know, as, as we close this program, I’m, I’m so glad you were able to make it. Um, there’s an old expression about, you know, revolutionaries in order to be part of any revolution, and I will apply innovation, that you have to experience a revolution or an innovation spirit in your own mind.

And I do think you’ve touched on it, the challenge in education has been the adults oftentimes. You know, children, children now communicate through digital, through the digital age and with cell phones, and we rail against it and try to limit it. So the adults who are caretakers and have custodial responsibility for educating our young, they need to be focused on how they can experience their own innovative spirit.

Revolutionary spirit in terms of understanding technology, and then they can connect and relate with children and learn how to do things a little differently. You’re absolutely right. The system is not necessarily designed to do that, and I think you’ve, you’ve figured out how to at least crack that nut in a way that works for kids, and I appreciate you for it.

David Heiber: No, ke let me, let me say this, man. Let me give you your flowers, um, because I, I, you deserve ’em. Is that you’ve been doing this work, uh, for so long, man, not to aid you. Um, but I mean for, for those in this industry, uh, we, we know you, we know your heart. Uh, we know the sacrifice that you’ve done. You’ve paved so much for so many.

Uh, quite frankly, if it wasn’t for you, much of the work that had been done in DC and only, you know, it wouldn’t have been done. Uh, I mean that, that you were a risk taker before it was popular to be a risk taker. And what, like, what you’re doing now, even giving me an opportunity to come and share. Um, and that’s what I’ve been trying to, that’s what I’ve been trying to do because how much was done for me if it wasn’t for you?

There were so many people, but it wasn’t for you. Dr. Robowski, Dr. Uh, Asante. Kim Statham for Believe It. Hell, I will even say this. Kim risked her job to give me a startup grant to start concentric. No one wants to say it wasn’t personal because black folks weren’t getting, getting opportunities through new school venture funds out in Cali back then.

Now they are, they have a whole diversity, uh, stream, but we weren’t getting the opportunity. So, you know, shout out, continue to do your thing, brother. And I appreciate you, uh, and however I can be supportive and thank you for having me.

Kevin P. Chavous: Yeah. Alright. David Hebert, once again, thank you for joining us on what I want to know.

Good luck.

David Heiber: Thank you brother.

Kevin P. Chavous: Thanks for listening to What I Want to know. Be sure to follow and subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app so you can explore other episodes and dive into our discussions on the future of education and write a review of the show. I also encourage you to join the conversation and let me know what you want to know using hashtag WI WT K on social media.

That’s hashtag WIWTK. For more information on Stride and online education, visit stridelearning.com. I’m your host, Kevin P. Chavous. Thank you for joining. What I want to know.