Is college the right path for every student?

Mark: When I speak to students, I say, you know, there’s so many memes on social media that say, go out and find your passion, right? We as adults ask kids all the time, “What are you passionate about?” And like, sometimes they’re not passionate about anything. I think it’s a waste of time to try to find what you’re passionate about. I tell kids to go out and find what you’re good at.

Kevin: For the past few decades, there’s been a large push for students to enroll in a four-year university immediately after high school. But according to a recent survey, almost 70% of parents would support their children entering the workforce right after high school. What’s causing parents to accept and seek alternative routes for their children? What skills do students need to thrive in today’s careers?

And is college the right fit for all students? This is “What I Want To Know.” And today I’m joined by Mark Perna to find out.

Mark Perna is a speaker, bestselling author, and Forbes contributor. He considers himself a champion of the younger generations, devoting his career to understanding their untapped potential. He joins us today to discuss if college is the right path for students to have successful careers. Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark: Thank you so much, Kevin. It’s a joy to be with you.

Kevin: So I’ve looked at your work and I know first and foremost, you’re a fellow podcaster. Talk to me a little bit about, you know, why you started your podcast. And I know it dovetails into the bigger topic we’re going to talk about regarding the potential of this younger generation of Americans. But I’m always intrigued by people who decide they want to go on the air on a regular basis and share their views.

Mark: Right. And put it out there like ripples in a pond. Right. And you see where it, right, how deep and how you know, how wide the ripples can go. And so, yeah, so I started “The Perna Syndicate” quite a while back and, you know, and it’s been something that is just a joy of mine. It’s a micro podcast. So a little bit different than this format.

You know, it’s 90 seconds a day, Monday through Friday. And it’s, I think listeners in 70 countries at this point, which, you know, it just still boggles my mind that, you know, that people pick things up, you know, thanks to the Internet and the ability for for a message to expand. But it’s largely to to bring light to the kind of subject and thing that, you know, we’re going to talk about here in our time together.

But it’s, you know, how do we continue to, you know, to build the pipelines between education, employment, economic development for the viability of our communities across the nation and across North America. So that’s really a passion of mine. And being able to connect the dots as to how extraordinary young people are and, you know, how do we meet them where they are and how do we unleash their passion, purpose, and performance. So that’s just a love of mine. And this is a that gives me a, you know, a venue and an avenue to do that.

Kevin: What drew you to this work? Talk a little bit about the younger version of Mark, who was involved in, you know, the business world, work world. Something told you that your passion, your future, your path was to be a champion for young people. How did you get there?

Mark: Well, you know, I’ve been a single dad for 25 years, and I’ve got two sons that are two years apart. It’s amazing to me that you can dip into the same gene pool twice and come up with two totally different human beings. But I suspect a lot of people pull that off all the time. And my you know, my youngest son had ADHD and was not a good student. Did not enjoy going to school. If you were to ask my son in sophomore year of high school, “What are you passionate about?” he would have said, “I’m passionate about not going to school.” You know, he had a 1.5 grade point average. He was failing by every metric in education, you know, until the day he finally figured out what he wanted to do.

And it was on that day that everything changed. And a lot of young people are like that. We sometimes refer to, you know, some kids as “those kids,” you know, quote unquote. And my view on it is there’s no such thing as those kids. They’re all just kids in varying degrees of figuring this whole thing out. And quite frankly, we as adults are in the process of trying to figure this whole thing out, too.

And sometimes I think we forget the fact that kids are just smaller, younger, and they’re not- they don’t have the maturation yet to have figured it all out. They’re in a different varying process of it.

Kevin: You know what’s interesting, when you talk about your children and I have two, three sons and they are vastly different, but, you know, when you talk about this generation in particular, and I’m going to read this because I was struck by this simple quote that you said that, you know, “they’re one of the most talented, resourceful, and tenacious generations to come down the pike.” Yet many people, you know, millennials, baby boomer boomers and others, they do talk about “those kids,” “that generation,” as if there’s something wrong. Why is that?

Mark: Well, I mean, I think it’s simply the view. One of the challenges that I see in in America today is that, you know, everybody wants to put everything into a box. And you cannot put generation Z, 8 to 26 years old in a box. And when I speak about Generation Z, also, you know, lump millennials in there because they’re an extraordinary generation themselves. And most people have negative terms, right? “They’re lazy, they’re entitled, they’re this or that.” I say don’t believe it for a minute. They’re the most, you know, extraordinary generations to come down the pipe. They’re intelligent, resourceful. I call them also pit bull generations, because when they see a want to in their life something they truly want, they will move heaven and earth to get to the want to.

Our challenge as parents, educators, and employers getting them to want something that’s really where the battlefield of the future is. So if you can get them to want something and understand what they’re shooting for, they’re all in. And that’s what makes them pretty extraordinary. I call them the benchmark generation today because I’m, you know, as a generational expert, I used to talk about all the different generations and what do each one of them think and how you have to adapt accordingly.

And I would do that in, you know, in business. I would do that in education. I only speak about one generation today and that’s 8 to 26 year olds, Gen Z, because if you understand what they think, what makes them tick, how they make decisions, you can adapt that to every other generation because what Gen Z is looking for is exactly what everybody in the workforce is looking for and in education and if you just, but if you understand how to reach them, that’s the game changer.

Kevin: How to reach them is a big challenge for many who run and teach in American schools. Part of it is that we have, we’re beginning this slow, methodical process of migrating from a stand-and-deliver format in the classroom. The teacher’s all-knowing, kids sit still, don’t move. Write down what I say, then regurgitate it back on a test and then forget it after the test. But this iteration, the Generation Z, is very clear that one way to engage them is to make sure that, one, they are respected and that they are part of the learning process in as much as they it’s their journey and they want to own part of the journey.

Talk a little bit about, you know, your view on what schools and teachers should be looking at in terms of the engagement process, because one of their complaints is that it’s hard to engage these Gen Z-ers and I believe like you, is not as hard. If we just take an approach that meets them where they are.

Mark: Well, and it starts with the power of a human connection. If you know Generation Z as its resting pulse and of course, any time you talk about a generation of folks, there’s a huge bell curve. I’m talking about everybody in the middle, always outliers to this. But from a generational perspective, they need and require as a non-negotiable, a human connection. And that human connection has to be built through respect and understanding the way respect and the way trust works with them is that they must feel respect first before they turn around and respect you.

I’m not saying this is the way life should be. It’s simply the way it is, and especially for older generations who believe that their age, their title, and their station in life requires and demands respect. They’re going to be very frustrated because young people simply do not give it. They’re actually driving a respect and respect kind of relationship and communication strategy. So understanding that you have to give it first, they will then turn around and give it back. But recognizing that the power of the human connection is what allows them to move forward. And when I speak all over the nation, I’ll do over 90 keynote speeches this year, two thirds of which are to education and to K-12 districts and statewide administration conferences, etc., is talking about the power of building that human connection.

And here’s our challenge in education: we are at a crisis of epic proportions in education because our teaching staff, our administrators, our counselors, our special needs folks, our classified staff, our paraprofessionals are so full of stuff that we have put on them from the federal side, the state side, etc. that we no longer in a systemic way, have the ability to deliver the human connection the way we need it.

And in a post-pandemic world where young people really were sacrificing the human connection with them during that time period, we have not gotten it back. And this explains why in elementary and middle schools today, kids are feral, they’re out of control. We can’t quite get our arms around it, and we’re recognizing that they’re different. Well, there are key strategies to be able to start building that human connection and understanding that the human connection in many cases is more important than filling their heads with knowledge. Because until you can inspire the flame of inspiration, they’re not going to open their minds to allow you to fill it anyway. So you have to recognize that in relationship, that’s what’s key today.

Kevin: Let’s talk about schools and careers, because we have found in schools that Stride runs and also and in many schools across the country that this notion of engaging the Generation Zs in in their career paths is a huge, huge has huge potential. And building that that human connection that if they find an interest and you work with them on nurturing that interest and you are a partner in their learning journey as they nurture that interest, it goes a long way and you talk about that a bit in your book where it’s about a mindset shift. So extrapolate more on that.

Mark: Yeah, I mean, I think the best way I can extrapolate that is I speak to a lot of high school kids and I speak to a lot of middle school kids. So when I go into a community, you know, a lot of times I’m doing multiple, you know, kinds of speeches to different groups, sometimes economic development chambers, and then, you know, I’ll speak to the K-12 staff and then I’ll also speak to students.

When I speak to students, I say, you know, there’s so many memes on social media that say, go out and find your passion, right? We as adults ask kids all the time, What are you passionate about? And sometimes they’re not passionate about anything. I think it’s a waste of time to try to find what you’re passionate about. I tell kids to go out and find what you’re good at, and I think the power of where we are in America today is that there are so many ways to find what you’re good at. How to explore, how to job shadow, how to go out and just see what you like to do.

And I think if you can find what you like to do and what you’re good at, that can be something you one day turn into something you love that can one day turn into something you’re passionate about. Passion is where grit, stick-to-itiveness and resilience lives and where you just can’t get to passion. Passion is a journey to get to that. You and I have taken a long time in our lives to get to a point where we’re passionate about anything. We may have a high degree of interest. That’s not the same thing as passion. Passion is another gear and the other that gear is is harder to get to.

So, I think, you know, in talking to young people today in the educational realm, we have to recognize that they need an answer to a very simple question all the time Why is this important? What am I going to do with this? How am I going to you know, how is this going to help me build a powerful competitive advantage in my life? And the more we transition our narrative around the country to building a competitive advantage, that’s personal for them. That’s what supersizes all of this, because they’re not recognizing “Why do I need to do this?” There are far too many young people today who are what I call standing still in the tunnel and static purpose because they simply don’t see something worth moving toward. They don’t want to put in the work and the effort. They’re distracted. Maybe there could be one or a myriad of things holding them back, or they’re afraid to take a step in the right direction. All of this because we have kind of muddied the field.

And we have to be very clear what they’re building. They’re building a competitive advantage. They’re building the ability to take their academic knowledge, their technical competencies, their professional skills, what I call professional skills: work ethic, punctuality, leadership, communication, work-life balance, stress management, critical thinking, problem solving, etc. all of these things are what you know, what we in America call soft skills. I changed the term a decade ago to professional skills because I think soft skills are, you know, sound like they’re unimportant when I think they’re the darn near most important things we can give our kids.

So these are the kinds of things that build relevance to the journey and then getting them hands-on with applied academic knowledge in ways that they can use it. That’s what they can. That’s where they can find what they’re good at.

Kevin: And all that speaks to the challenge we see now in terms of just choosing college as the right path for a child because it years ago the goal was for many parents, I want to get my child into college, so they can have a successful career. Now, two things are play: one is when you when you talk about kids asking, why is this important?

Many kids look at the student debt and they see that college degrees. You can have a college degree in computer science and still make less than someone who has a specialty in that field and hasn’t gone to college. So they are wondering why is it important if I can get a skill and not necessarily have to go to college? And the other thing is, interestingly enough, Mark, 70% of parents out there are now saying, as opposed to pushing their kids, you have to get on the college track, that they’re more open to considering supporting their kids, developing a skill as opposed to going straight to college. Talk about this, the role of college today in the midst of this more dynamic, more knowledgeable view of oneself that Gen Z-ers have and where that’s headed.

Mark: Yeah, I’m a tremendous fan of all the ways to be successful in America. A university degree is one of many right? There’s four year degrees, there’s master’s Ph.Ds, etc. There’s also two year associate’s degrees. There are certifications, licensures, apprenticeship, the military, entrepreneurship. I’m a fan of all of it. It all needs to be on the table.

But where this is starting to play out in the university realm is that, you know, young people today, Generation Z, we’re in a three year slide of less enrollments across the board for Generation Z because they do not see a return on investment. I recently wrote an article about what Amazon and Workplace Intelligence did and and recognizing that young people today want to be taught professional skills, they need more of those kinds of things to be successful in whatever it is they choose.

But we’re also needing to recognize that a four year degree has lost its return on investment 35%, according to the Gates Foundation, which is an article I wrote back in November, are saying that they don’t see a return on investment. They do. They see the costs are very high. They’re not sure what they can do with the degree because it really depends on what your degree is in and you know, and what the labor market looks like and what you’re studying as to how you connect the dots is as a consumer of education.

I make this point when I go around the country as I advocate for everything, is that we have to understand as we see this shift in what young people think, what makes them tick, and how they make decisions, is that just because; I asked this question of all K-12 districts, I asked this question of state statewide leadership.

You know, wherever I get a chance to say this, “Why do we assume in America today that just because someone’s good at school, that they should go get more school?” We assume it. I’m not saying they shouldn’t. I’m just saying why do we why do we assume they should? You know, if what they want to do in life requires that additional education? Go, go, go. I mean, invest wisely, go with passion, go with purpose, but make sure that you get it done. That’s not necessarily what’s happening. A lot are becoming disengaged. They’re dropping out for a myriad of reasons. So looking at, you know, there are no certainties in life. There are no guarantees at a four year degree level and beyond.

So knowing why you’re going building the purpose, building the connection, so that if you’re going to a four year degree and beyond, you’re doing it for the right reasons. If you’re going to a two year, you know, associate degree, you’re doing it for the right reasons. If you’re using certifications and licensure and apprenticeships in the military and entrepreneurship to get your, you know, your motor started and get you some work so that you can choose.

Now, where do you build from there? I think there’s power in someone going off to a four year degree and beyond to three or four years later after they’ve worked at certifications, they’ve worked in the field, they’ve had a couple of side hustles and now they like understand like, Hey, now I really want to reach for this, well go get the education you need for this. And I think there’s a power in that. Far too many are going simply because we said to go. Like there’s some magic at the end of it. I don’t think there’s any magic. It’s what you put into it and that’s what you’re going to get out of it. But they’re not understanding the game that’s before them.

Kevin: When you talk about career, the career path, employers are starting to get this message too. Wouldn’t you agree, Mark? Because more, more employers are providing more apprenticeship programs, job shadowing, as you mentioned, internships.

Talk about the role of the employer because often times they’ve been far more disconnected from the school, even in developing career pathways that make sense where students can get the skills necessary. Talk about how employers can be a play a bigger part in this. In working with schools.

Mark: They absolutely can. I mean, you mentioned some of the great ways, Kevin, So, you know, being able to recognize the power of apprenticeships and mentorships and internships, etc., you know, all of these things are powerful, connecting, you know, directly between, you know, the K-12 system, even our higher education, you know, community technical colleges, universities, being able to recognize that we’ve got to create the pipelines between, you know, all of these educational organizations and, you know, the business and industry communities that we serve at all levels of education, experience.

And so what I’m seeing as I talk to CEOs and hiring managers, human resource executives around the country, I ask a simple question like, “What are you looking for today? Like, at the end of the day, at all levels of education experience, What are you looking for?” Here’s the answer I get today, “Mark, we’d be really happy if we could just find people who show up on time consistently and pass a drug test. And if they can have a little bit of critical thinking and problem solving. We can hook them up.” You know, I mean, it’s come down to that, that that’s what they’re looking for.

You know, I always say that there’s three things that every young person needs to have a competitive advantage today. They need robust academic knowledge. It was true 50 years ago, true today. But now you also have to add technical competencies, the things you can do in your head / with your hands, and then professional skills: work ethic, punctuality, communication, leadership, etc. Those are the critical things.

But even the Wall Street Journal did a survey of CEOs hiring managers, human resource executives, and they found that 92% across America say that they value professional skills over academic knowledge and technical competence. 89% said that the hardest things for them to find. And so what we’re seeing is a disconnect between what we’re doing in education to what is actually needed in our workforce at all levels of education experience. And we’ve got to connect those dots because ultimately that connects to economic development for the viability of our communities. And every community has to come together. And that’s really what I’m speaking about all over the nation.

Kevin: You know, this is so important. And I do have one last question. This is what I really want to know. And it speaks to this idea of getting students on the right path toward developing those professional skills. What tools and strategies can educators use to help build motivation, passion, direction for students? And you mentioned human connection. But for many educators who are kind of stuck in what they’ve learned in Ed school, that is often a challenge.

Talk about some of the tools and strategies to help motivate these students so they can find what they’re good at, as you said, and then move forward.

Mark: Yeah, I mean, I think the first one in building the human connection is critically important, and that is recognizing that every young person has three questions in the back of their mind. We frankly, as adults have the same three questions, but from a conscious standpoint, every connection and an opportunity to be with a young person either in your home, classroom, or a place of business, recognize these three questions are at play all the time. So I think step one is recognizing that the three questions have to have a yes answer to all three. If one of them is a no, you’ve lost them, you may never get them back.

The three questions are simply this: “Do you see me? Do you hear me? Do I matter?” To recognize in a conscious way that every time you move from one communication to another with someone, ask yourself in the wake of that conversation, did they feel, seen, heard and mattered? If the answer in your own mind is no, you’ve lost them. That connection is important. So any strategy that comes after that in connecting these dots and being able to build professional skills that comes in in how they feel connected to you as the driver and kind of I call it the leverage. You know, you have to leverage the conduit of that human connection through that pipeline of human connection is how you teach professional skills.

I also have one other thing, You know, I mean, we also have to recognize what are we really trying to accomplish anymore? You know, we’re trying to teach five-year-olds in America today to read. Now, I don’t have a dog in the hunt whether a five-year-old should read or could read or has the mental capacity to read. I don’t have a dog in that hunt. Here’s the dog I have. Kindergarten has become the new second grade because we’re trying to teach people to read younger. And like I said, I don’t have a dog in the hunt whether someone should or could. Here’s the dog I have: what are we giving up so that a five-year-old can read? We’re giving up playtime. What do you learn in playtime? Everything. You learn everything. You learn communication, adapting, coping, regulating. You learn leadership, you learn all kinds of things in playtime. And we somehow have come to this notion that if we get rid of playtime, we have more time to fill their noggins with all this great information. And a lot of it is great information.

But again, if you recognize that they’re not going to open their mind unless we’ve built a human connection and inspire the mind to be open, then we’re missing key components and we’re wondering why we’re not gaining traction on where we are today. And so being able to have this conversation as communities being able to talk about this openly and say, how do we connect these dots and be able to create a general understanding in a community as to how we do that? And I think those are critically important moments in this country.

Kevin: We need more and more conversation around playtime. Mark, you know this. You’ve traveled the world like I have and visited many schools. The main reason why Finland consistently is the number one country in the world in terms of educational output for kids. They offer more playtime for kids than any other democracy in the globe, and that is pretty phenomenal.

We kind of lose sight of that with this drill and kill mindset.

Mark: We really do. You know, and I’ve said this publicly numerous times, you know, when I speak to young people, I’ve come to a conclusion that we’re completely wasting their time. And that’s not everywhere. I mean, our best teachers, our best administrators, counselors are doing amazing work. And there are so many wonderful best practices in the country today. But it’s not systemic enough. We’re not doing it systemically. Like, you know, our best teachers and administrators and counselors, they’re building a human connection. That’s what they do. That’s their resting pulse, you know, but it’s not systemic because we’re not opening up the bandwidth for our teachers, our administrators, our counselors, etc., to do the things they need to do to build it. We need to clear things off their plates. We need to make things possible for them to be able to build this human connection, because it’s the only way we’re going to turn all of this around and get it moving in the right direction with a group of, with a generation of people who require it as a non-negotiable.

So, you know, this tipping point that we’ve reached in education is critically important that we recognize, getting back to the human connection, building the inspiration through the conduit of that human connection now allows us to fill their minds with the things that are relevant if we give them the compelling reason to how they’re going to use it. That’s competitive advantage. That’s recognizing that building the competitive advantage, their personal competitive advantage is gold.

And when I speak to students around the country as I’m on this journey of mine, I start with that competitive advantage and I talk to them about how they’re going to need to build it. No matter how grand, modest, or laid back they view for their lives. And there’s a whole power in that conversation. I hope one day we can have that too.

Kevin: Well, I’d love to. And Mark, I’m going to tell you, you need to keep doing what you’re doing. Continue to be a missionary for the younger generation. You know what, we say Kids are the future, and I’m glad you’re their champion. Mark Perna, thank you so much for joining us on “What I Want To Know.”

Mark: Thank you, Kevin. It’s been an honor to be with you.

Kevin: Thanks for listening to “What I Want to Know.” Be sure to follow and subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app so you can explore other episodes and dive into our discussions on the future of education. And write a review of the show. I also encourage you to join the conversation and let me know what you want to know using #WIWTK on social media. That’s #WIWTK.

For more information on Stride and online education, visit stridelearning.com. I’m your host, Kevin P. Chavous. Thank you for joining “What I Want to Know.”