The Tax Bill That Could Change American Education With John Schilling

Opponents call it a dismantling of public education. This legislation could redraw the map of American schooling. John Schilling has spent his career pushing for that kind of change. Now, Washington is listening. What’s in this field and who stands to win or lose if it becomes law? This is what I want to know.

John Schilling once again, welcome to what I want to know. I mean, John, we’ve known each other for so long. I want to talk about the bill, but you know, I also wanna talk about you. You have often  done so much behind the scenes. And for the listeners out there, how did you get involved in this issue? Because this is an issue that not many people are naturally drawn to, but this whole issue of educational choice, educational freedom, parent choice, uh, what’s best for our kids.

You’ve been a stalwart in this for 25, 30 years. How did you get there?

John Schilling: Well, Kevin, it’s great to be with you. That’s, that’s, that’s a wonderful question. Uh, and I’ve answered this a few times, so a very long time ago, I. Um, uh, in the nineties I was interfering for a job, uh, with the governor of California, and the personnel director says, you know, I’m looking at your background here, and you could best be described as a universalist.

You, you know, a little about a lot of things, but you’re an expert at nothing.

Kevin P. Chavous: Wow. I’m glad, I’m glad I didn’t have that interview.

John Schilling: So I, I took that as my cue to really hone in on something. And I was very blessed. In 1997, I went to work for an incredible woman who you and I both know, her name was Lisa Graham Keegan.

She was the superintendent of public instruction for the state of Arizona. Uh, and Lisa was a tree shaker. And, you know, she, she wanted to shake things up. She wanted to get things done, and that often meant. You know, irritating people on both sides of the aisle to do what was right for kids.  And, and that was my, that was my training in, in this issue, and that’s how I got involved in it.

And I’ve been very blessed to work with some incredible people, uh, like you on the DC Opportunity Scholarship Program for so many years.

Kevin P. Chavous: Let me jump in for a quick moment. For a lot of students, the traditional model just isn’t the right fit. That’s why more than 3 million families have chosen K 12 power schools, offering flexible tuition free learning options with certified teachers, and a personalized approach that meets learners where they are.

If that sounds worth exploring, you can head to k12.com/podcast. Alright. Back to the conversation.

John Schilling: Uh, I was able to run the American Federation for Children for many years where we worked in states all over the country to bring educational freedom, uh, to children and parents. Uh, and it’s been a great journey and, uh, I, I just feel so fortunate to be a part of this work.

What’s

Kevin P. Chavous: interesting is, is you mentioned, you and I worked closely together for several years, but so much of the work that we did was, uh, state by state. Where we would try to have a quality based charter school law or educational freedom law pass, we work with legislators on both sides of the aisle. Uh, talk a little bit about that transition from doing the state work to now your involvement in helping to drive this federal legislation, which is a whole different animal.

John Schilling: Yeah, it is, it is a  whole different animal. And, you know, the, the state work, it’s very different because I feel like at the state level, you do have a greater opportunity to penetrate non-traditional constituencies to, you know, to get them to come aboard some of this stuff. It’s not easy, uh, you know, by and large, as you know, uh, particularly on the private choice side.

This has been driven by. By Republicans around the country and here at the, here at the national level. Uh, while we have been involved in the national level through the DC Opportunity Scholarship Program, uh, and through this, this idea of a federal scholarship tax credit for many years, um, the momentum.

Really shifted, I think over the last 5, 6, 7 years. Uh, you know, it began with, uh, with secretary Betsy Voss in, in the first Trump administration when she popularized this concept of a federal tax credit scholarship. But here at the federal level, the dynamics are so different. Uh, it is so polarized at the federal level.

Um, and, and it’s very difficult to make inroads with the other side, and, and you sort of have to approach things a little bit differently. Um, but I feel like, um, we have done a very good job, uh, uh, you know, advocates who have been pushing for this, uh, to, to help educate members about. You know why it’s necessary for Congress to be involved in school choice?

Because we all know, we’ve  all been taught to believe education is a state and local issue, period. But for those of us that have been involved in this, we know that the federal government provides about 80 billion annually for K 12 education. Um, and they’ve never really moved, uh, on school choice at the federal level.

And we’ve, we’ve tried to construct something that we think respects federalism, uh, but will also compliment what states around the country are doing. Uh, and we think that this will ultimately bring educational opportunity to a lot of states that perhaps wouldn’t get it on their, so let me ask

Kevin P. Chavous: you this, and I wanna get into the details of the bill.

And one of the first things I want you to answer, uh, after I ask this other question is. You know, what is a federal tax credit? I mean, in education, what it looks like. But um, is there any incongruity between. Closing the Department of Education where there’s less federal involvement and this bill, which would almost expand the federal government’s role state by state and some of these scholarship offerings.

John Schilling: Yeah, so this is, uh, this is a conversation I have with a lot of folks, um, because, you know, abolishing the Department of Education. Yeah. As you know, captures a lot of headlines. Yep, yep, yep. It creates a lot of anxiety. That’s why. And, and the, uh, you know, and, and what I say to people is. These two things have nothing to do with each other.

So the construction of a federal scholarship tax credit, um, is, is, is  the most important word there is tax. This is a tax bill, so it is, it is really not even an education bill. It is a tax bill. And the way that this works, as it works in 21 states around the country. As individual and corporate donors contribute to nonprofit scholarship granting organizations who then provide scholarships to students.

So the donors, they will receive a 100% non-refundable tax credit. Uh, and, uh, the parents and the students, uh, are the beneficiaries. This. So it really doesn’t have anything to do with the Federal Department of Education. It is not a federal program. It’s very important. This is not a federal program. Uh, and it does not take any funding away from whatever the federal government is currently providing for K 12 education.

Uh, and that’s a really important point, and we tell people that the beauty of this is that we are adding private money. Two RK 12 education, uh, which will accrue directly to the benefit of

Kevin P. Chavous: students. What’s powerful about that is the best example in the state of Florida where they had the most robust, uh, tax, credit program, scholarship program, and you had a lot of corporate donors, uh, give money, uh, to the entity running the program in Florida.

So that. You know, working class low income kids, uh, will be able to attend, uh, private schools of their choice. And while there was some, uh, pushback on  initially, a lot of, uh, democrats in the state of Florida supported the program, uh, African American Democrats, and you had a lot of kids benefit. Do you see Florida as an example about what, what’s possible with this federal bill?

If we go state by state and then talk about. Whether or not it will automatically apply to all states.

John Schilling: So Florida is the nation’s model education choice state. Uh, and you know, this all began as you know, in the late nineties under Governor Jeb Bush and the state of Florida has kept their foot on the gas and they have continued to create more and more opportunities for their, for their citizens.

And. Um, one of the great things about Florida is we saw that, you know, once more and more kids were able to participate in what they were doing, um, you, you were moving into a lot of different constituencies and the folks in Florida, uh, particularly the folks that step up for students, they would work very hard.

To bring those beneficiaries in to see their legislators who were often, you know, Democrats, you know, African American Democrats, Hispanic Democrats, white Democrats, and eventually you, you started to get to a point I. Where you were building bipartisan support for this, which is great because the politicians realized that their constituents were, were, were truly  benefiting from this.

Um, you know, and that’s, that, that’s what this is about. And I, and I think what this federal scholarship tax credit, uh, it will not only compliment. What states like Florida are doing, and there are now 32 states that have some form of private school choice because what we are trying to do here with this federal scholarship tax credit is it can be stacked on top of whatever a state is doing.

So you are increasing purchasing power for. Parents and you’re helping more kids. Uh, and then in addition to that, uh, it will create opportunities, you know, in places like New York and California, Michigan, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Colorado, you know, places that have not been able to get around that corner to expand education freedom.

So my hope is that. What we experienced in Florida over the last 20 years with this becoming more of a bipartisan issue. I am hoping that this is gonna happen around the country when we get this done, because we’re gonna create a lot of beneficiaries who are gonna be in a lot of districts who are represented by Democrats.

And we’re gonna try to get these folks in to see their policy makers and say, look, this, this stuff works. This is not a Republican or a Democrat issue. This is about kids. It’s about kids. So a couple quick

Kevin P. Chavous: questions and uh, the way they’re. The legislation, the federal legislation is, uh, is gonna be presented.

Uh. States have to opt in, is that right?

John Schilling: No, they do not. So under this legislation, um,  states do not have to opt in. This is simply, it’s available, uh, it’s available. The relationship is between the taxpayer, the scholarship granting organization, and the Treasury Department. There is no, and there’s

Kevin P. Chavous: no. Uh, it doesn’t impact on education funding that takes place in the state.

These are all private donors?

John Schilling: Yeah, all private donors. It has no bearing, does not, uh, not notwithstanding some of the assertions from people who oppose our work. This does not take money from, uh, either what the federal government is providing for K 12 education nor what any state is providing for K 12 education.

This is. So let

Kevin P. Chavous: me ask you this, because this is something that’s also been said. Some believe that it will dismantle public education and public school districts, and looking at Florida as an example, they’ve got 25 years experience with this. Uh, would these additive funds help or hurt public education or, and help.

Or hurt kids who are in both systems. ’cause Florida I think, has done some studies. It shows that the more robust the tax credit scholarship program is, the better all kids do. Is that right?

John Schilling: Yeah, that, that’s absolutely true. And you know, Kevin, one of the things you and I have been hearing for 30 years is that if we do this, public education will  die and it will crumble, and that will be the end of it.

Well, uh, we, we now have 32 states that have some form of private school choice. We’ve got about, uh, I don’t know, 1.1, 1.2 million kids who are benefiting from this and our public education system. It, it’s still standard. It hasn’t crumbled. It’s, it’s still there. It still needs help. Uh, you know, we’re, we’re still at a point where, uh, you know, only around 40% of the kids are proficient in reading and math according to the National Assessment for Educational Progress.

And we have studies. Uh, 30 years of studies that tell us, uh, some very, some very important things about, about these programs. If you are a student that is fortunate enough to receive a scholarship, to participate in a private school choice program, you are more likely to graduate from high school. You are more likely to go on to college or a trade school or, or, or the military.

Uh, you are less likely to commit crimes. You are more likely to be civic-minded. Uh, and in addition to this, what we know is that the surrounding. Public schools are also benefiting from the existence of choice. And all of this information is available. Uh, folks can go to the EdChoice website where they have compiled all of this research, uh, and it is right there for everybody to see.

Uh, this is gonna help all kids and, and that, and it’s important to remember what this is all about. You know, it, it, it shouldn’t be about y you  know, whether a child is going to a traditional public school down the street, a charter school, an online school, a micro school, a home school. What this is about is doing everything we can as a society to give every child access to a great education.

Uh, we should be agnostic about what sector that is. It’s really about making sure that every kid has access to a great education.

Kevin P. Chavous: So let me ask you this, um. What are the next steps in this federal legislative process? Uh, where do things stand?

John Schilling: So, uh, we are trying to get this federal scholarship tax credit enacted through a process called budget reconciliation.

And this is a process as you know. Where if one party controls the White House, the House and the Senate, uh, they are able to do things in one large bill that do not require 60 votes in the United States Senate. Um, both parties have used this tool, uh, the Biden administration, uh, they used it a couple of times to pass the American Rescue Plan and the Inflation Reduction Act, and now the Trump administration is trying to do this to pass what, what, what they’re referring to as, as the big beautiful bill.

Um, there’s a lot of things that are in this product. Um, it, it is a product that does, uh, have to withstand the scrutiny of the Senate parliamentarian, because reconciliation has a lot of rules attached to it. Uh, there’s, there’s a  very famous one called the Bird Rule for former US Senator Robert Bird, West Virginia.

So only certain things you can do in a reconciliation. Process that will survive what they refer to as the bird bath when the parliamentarian goes through and spikes a lot of stuff. Uh, but we believe that our, our federal scholarship tax credit proposal is, is bird compliant. Uh, we think it will withstand the scrutiny of the parliamentarian.

Um, and you know, right now the house has passed their version of the reconciliation bill. Uh, it is currently over on the Senate side. Um, I think my, my best guess is that a good chunk of this is already baked and the Senate will try to put their fingerprints on, you know, this piece or that piece. And, you know, we’re hoping that they’ll improve, uh, the version of our product, uh, that that is in the bill.

Um, and then we’re hoping we can get it to the president and get it signed. Uh, and if we can do that, you know, we will be ready to roll. So

Kevin P. Chavous: one last. Uh, thought. And a couple questions. Um, you know, it’s interesting hearing you talk about the legislative process, which I know, well, I know for many listeners they’re thinking I.

What I mean, the bird bath, what the heck is going on? And it, it reminds me of something you alluded to earlier that I always said is wouldn’t it be you talk about a big, beautiful bill, wouldn’t it be a big, beautiful thing if we just took the politics out of education? And the focus was,  will this help kids?

If the answer’s yes, we should support it. It’s no. We shouldn’t at some point in time, it seems to me that with all the political tensions that are going on in this country, there should be like, you know, one major area where we just depoliticize. The impact of things. Um, and, and, and education is one of them.

Ultimately more kids, it seems to me, will benefit school districts won’t lose money. Um, isn’t that something that we should be really? Paying attention to

John Schilling: Abso. Absolutely. And I think, I think the first part about getting there is, you know, you do have to agree on a, on a basic set of facts. Um, I don’t think any objective person can look at our K 12 system.

And conclude that we are doing the best we can for our kids. We’re, we’re, we’re, we’re just not. Um, there are too many kids following through the cracks. I mean, if you’re a really, really bright young person, I. Um, you know, you’re sort of at the top of that Nate scale and you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re exceeding the proficient level and you know, you, you’re gonna be fine.

You know, you probably come from a, a good family. You live in a good neighborhood, you’ve gone to good schools. If you’re in that big, broad middle where most  of the kids lie, um, you’re probably not getting as great education as you need. And, and if you’re in that bottom rung, which is, uh, look, that’s mostly low income kids, uh, low income minority kids.

We need to do better. And I, we, we have to agree on a basic set of facts that we’re not doing all that we can do to help our kids, to help every kid get a great education. And I think that’s just a process of continuing to educate policymakers on both sides of the aisle. Um, that giving parents the freedom.

To determine the best educational environment for their child, um, is a way that we, that we can get there. And, and again, I, I feel like, you know, going back to your, uh, your, your, your Florida example, I do feel like, you know, as educational choice expands, uh, around the country, if we can get this federal product done, uh, we are gonna create, uh, a larger constituency of parents who are benefiting from this.

Who I believe can help help us educate policy makers and help us get to where you want to go, which is, if there’s one thing we could agree on, that ought to be nonpartisan, it ought to be this. Yeah, absolutely.

Kevin P. Chavous: Well said. And last thing I’ll say, John, and I really appreciate you coming. We only get one opportunity to educate each child, just one.

And if somehow third grade teacher doesn’t work for a kid, fifth grade teacher, seventh grade teacher, irrespective of what’s going on in  their home life, if there’s some or any hiccups along the way, then that child’s whole life can be affected. So, uh, I believe most Americans believe that anything we can do to improve.

The likelihood of success in the educational system for children is the way we need to go. John, I really appreciate you joining us on what I want to know and good luck and let’s stay in touch.

John Schilling: Absolutely. Kevin, thanks so much for having me. Great to see you.

Kevin P. Chavous: Thanks for listening to What I Want to know.

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That’s #WIWTK. For more information on Stride and online education, visit stridelearning.com. I’m your host, Kevin P. Chavis. Thank you for joining. What I want to know.